On the post I just finished, I mentioned briefly the late great Walter Martin and linked a clip on youtube. Here I present a clip from The John Ankerberg Show, where Walter Martin is again Ankerberg’s guest where they discusses their problems with certain interpretations of scripture that would suggest annhilation of the wicked. Since 2004, I have sided with Ankerberg and Martin about the spirit in man is conscious after death. Before that (approximately 1999-2004) , I was with Edward Fudge, who is an orthodox Christian but supports annhilationism in books like The Fire That Consumes and Two Views of Hell (I got that one). Well in my studies Hebrews 12:22-24 showed me something a little different (and very positive) for the believer. For the unbeliever, the person who has rejected God at every turn in his or her life, will be conscious after their material body is shed on earth but will face an eternal disfellowshipment from the love of God. While Ankerberg and Martin leaned to the Western Church, Augustinian-Calvinist based thinking of hell, I lean to an Eastern Orthodox view of hell where it is more The Phantom Zone (think Superman) than an eternal torture chamber. I had an Facebook discussion with a staunch liberal Universalist who mocked the idea that Eastern Orthodox view of hell is more humane than the Western view. What is the old saying, “You can’t win ’em all!”
I know Aggie has this clip on her site as well as J of Shadows provides the link to the clip on this site, I just said, “Oh heck! Why can’t I? I will just make sure nobody escapes this.” This is the Christian Research Institute’s founder, the late Walter Martin back in the late ’70’s during the Worldwide Church of God’s upheaval with the California Attorney General talking on a local ABC affiliate about the Worldwide Church of God as it was back then and made predictions were cults would take us in the future. Little did he know about cultic doctrine within the Church (think the Wealth-Health Gospel) that would be so rampant after his death.
For those who have been waiting for the rest of the clips, finally!!! The “ex-gay” guest who was invited later in the show gave a powerful and interesting testimony to say the least and though for many years I have taken a hard-line against Bishop Spong for him wanting to radically redefine Christian orthodoxy, I was glad he took the “church fathers” to task like St.Jerome (a pure misogynist and proud of it) and John Chryssom (an anti-Semite and proud of it, condemned believers celebrating The Feast of Tabernacles in Jewish synagogues—so much for Jewish-Christian relations in the 4th century!). So there are some things I can share common ground with Bishop Spong but when it comes to the ressurection of Jesus Christ, I cannot in no way compromise that doctrine. I believe it was a literal ressurection from the dead and Jesus Christ’s body had new and amazing powers. Bill Maher may think I have built a wall on one side of my brain. Bishop Spong would call me a “fundamentalist” and would tell me to start believing in his interpretation of “ressurection of our hearts”. To me it is the literal ressurection of Christ, or we should all either join another religion or at least be non-theistic. Yea, I am with CS Lewis all the way: either Jesus Christ was Lord, lunatic or liar. Christianity stands or falls on the ressurection of Christ and if one wants to call that fanatical, so be it. I hope those will enjoy the following clips. I am interested in your comments about them.
The debate continues and will get very interesting in further clips.
I have been slower than my expectations in showing these video clips. Again, I present clips 3,4 and 5 out of 15 of Dr.Walter Martin’s last debate with Anglican Bishop John Shelby Spong. More to come.
Here is the second clip out of a 15 part clip (that’s how Youtube works) of the late Walter Martin’s last debate with Episcopal Bishop John Shelby Spong on the John Ankerberg Show back in 1989. Glad that James and Byker Bob liked it. Don’t worry, more to come!
Sorry James, no GTA this time but this is one of a debate from the late Walter Martin of the Christian Research Institute and liberal theologian and Episcopal priest John Shelby Spong in which they discuss the essentials of historic Christian faith and sexual ethics. I believe these clips are in 15 parts. I am just going to put only one here and worry about the rest later. Those who have seen the GTA-John Ankerberg debates here this summer, will also like this debate here too. As a note, this debate was taped on June 24th, 1989 and two days later on the 26th, Dr.Walter Martin’s earthly course was finished and was in eternal communion with his God.
…also to make this clear, Bishop Spong is not related to my knowledge to former WCG minister Grant Spong.
Many people enjoyed my posting of one the older editions of Christian apologist and cult-watcher John Ankerberg’s show with the late Garner Ted Armstrong. I am glad that many liked it. I have a couple more clips from another show (older edition) with him talking with the late Walter Martin, the founder of the Christian Research Institute and the original Bible Answer Man—way before the rise of Hank Hanegraaf, which was shortly after Dr. Martin’s passing waaay to soon (at 60 years young!) in 1989. There is a brief mention of Armstrongism among the other cults. The other clip is strictly an excerpt from a sermon GTA gave and I am glad he says what he says. Those in Armstrongism have an aversion to all things Protestant and have a warped mentality of “If Protestant’s teach this, it is wrong!” Well, Protestants teach murder is wrong—is that a wrong teaching? Protestant’s teach adultery is wrong—is it okay? Of course, Armstrongites are quick to disagree on that. Garner Ted, had his flaws and his well known hangups, but on this point he had the testicular fortitude to say that his church has a “protestant” influence when it comes to worship! It would have been nice Garner Ted if you took the GCI from a “para-protestant” organization to a fully orthodox Protestant denomination (and doing a better job transitioning of such than what Joe Jr. did to Worldwide, of course!). Hey, John Ankerberg would have been willing to go over trinitarian doctrine with you for a month! John had the time, he had the beer (maybe it was Miller Beer). I can only hope that the CGI and the ICG as individual members (forget the ministers) can maybe pick up the pieces…