This small lecture, from Diane Benscotter, an ex-Moonie explains. Courtesy TED.co (excellent site) and Youtube.com. I must add a viewer’s discretion advised warning for some brief scenes (and thank God it’s brief) of brutal violence.
(Editor’s note: Call him what you will. Contrarian. A man who loves to stir the pot. Rabble rouser and proud of it. Of all the comments suggested, you must appreciate the fact that former WCG minister Dennis Diehl makes you think. Yes, he does take you out of your own comfort zone and when he does it you are a better and sharper thinker for it. Co-equally and co-essentially, he is a man of compassion. During the Christmas season, on Gavin’s blog, one poster gave his candid feelings about his prolonged singleness for many years due to the restrictive policies and practices of the historic WCG which effected him psychologically and naturally frustrated this person sexually. Dennis response is compassionate. Dennis does not make jokes like, ”It is my understanding from studies that a wife will cost you about the same as a nice new fuel efficient car.Are you sure that you wouldn’t want the car instead?At least, when it’s working right, a car will take you where you want to go.” Which was actually told (as I said not by Dennis) but being a polite Canadian I followed along with some responses (while I was exploding mad inside). Frankly, the joke is extremely insensitive, especially from someone who has been married for a long time and has purely no concept of understanding the frustrations of being single. Dennis does not make another cruel condescending comment like, “Sex and marriage isn’t cracked up what it supposed to be!” Or other silly statements like, “Pray more! Serve the brethren more!” Just read what the poster says and what Dennis reponds. You might not agree with everything he says but is at least reflective, respectful and sympathetic.)
Thanks Dennis for understanding. I respect the fact that you are the ONLY WCG ex-minister with the integrity to post here under your own name, and your posts have been very helpful to me.
Name witheld by Editor
Dennis Diehl responds
Hi ——–
Thank you for your kind comments and I am very sorry for the pain that has come in hindsite with your church associations.
First of all..you thought you were doing the right thing at the time. So don’t be the monkey on your own back anylonger in this issue.
People don’t even talk about such things in most churches, much less address or solve them. My mind turns off these days when advice contains the words “should” or “must.”
There are more ways to develope relationships that just those expounded by the rather Talibanish OT and NT.
Terry R was no doubt torn between his need for touch and intimacy and “the rules.” He struck out, wrongly so, against the symbols of his pain.
Humans were never meant to be celebate and I find that Paul probably was, not because he was such a stud with character for his cosmic Christ, but that he was unlucky in love and hung up on the rules, fear, guilt and shame. I believe Gerald Waterhouse was married for four months once. I see similarities in mentality in he and Paul. I bet there were similar “problems” that went with it.
I’ll stick my neck out here and say,I am not the same person I was just a few years back. I believe in “intimate friends” and those I know who also do are the most balanced, happy, openly communicative with partners and mates that I know. They are not hung up on should and must. None of them allow a church to define their life experiences or lack of them. They all were once in churches and none are now. They are happier by far.
I guess I can only say so much on an open blog concerning these things. Give me a call and we can chat. Contrary to Tom’s ideas, today means little to me except that I know the sun is coming back and we aren’t going to be plunged into eternal darkness (hey think about that analogy!)
We all put portions of our brains and lives on hold for religious ideals. It’s done all over the planet. How will the dead suicide bomber feel when he finds all the virgins have left town or there are none left for him?
While it might take not doing so for a time, learning to think for oneself and then act on it regardless of the opinions of others is a freedom most never experience in life.
All of us (including myself) were stunned and surprised at the death of pop music star Michael Jackson since that warm but surreal and strange evening a week ago (hard to believe) this past Thursday. I could write an essay about Michael Jackson and his pop culture influence in my life. Seriously, I don’t know where to start. I can even remember the historic Worldwide Church of God’s “war” against Michael Jackson and the rest of the Jackson family. In my current affairs blog, The Way I See It, Anyway— I suggested that the historic WCG should have concentrated on serious objections to Michael’s abusive father Joseph (but the ministers would have loved to lick Joseph Jackson’s you-know-what. He was just like them!) . Back in 1984, at age 14 I remember when Mr.Waterhouse came for his visit to Toronto, Mr. Waterhouse ranted (as usual) about Michael Jackson “perverting” his vocal chords and will not “inherit the kingdom” unless he repents. Well, excuuuuse me!!! Did Mr.Waterhouse just kicked God off his throne and made a coup-d’etat??? No way, not a chance in the universe buddy (but ONLY and the word ONLY must be stressed,in Mr.Waterhouse’s mind he did just that). This is not to say Michael Jackson was a “holy saint” (in the stereotypical Catholic sense). We all know about his eccentricities (which sometimes frustrated me very heatedly at times) and his serious controversies (we know what they were and those controversies did also make me very heated too) but no one can dispute his transformational music of our time and that alone has to be strongly admired.
I have not been beer buddies with bloggist of COG Writer Bob Thiel and I want to do an unusual move for praising Dr.Thiel’s from departing from what the historical WCG would say about a tragedy like this. Read his article about the Jackson tragedy plus the other celeberties lost that same week at http://www.cogwriter.com/news/doctrine/can-god-save-billy-mays-michael-jackson-farrah-fawcett-and-ed-mcmahon/. With saying that, I want everyone to know that I do accept orthodox Christianity (yes, I am a Walter Martin-Kingdom of the Cults type when it comes to the essential doctrines of Christian faith) but I do agree with Dr.Thiel that God will make a righteous provision for the unevangelized dead. Some of you might be familiar with a former WCGer, who has his own Christian apologetics site by the name of Robin Brace (UK Apologetics). He too, has embraced orthodox Christianity but like myself has rejected passionately (and rightly so) the Augustinian-Calvinist position of the unevangelized dead and has embraced the Patristic, ancient Eastern Church thought. Read his article here at http://www.ukapologetics.net/07/INC21.htm and this one at explaining theological inclusivism as opposed to exclusivism, pluralism and universalism http://www.ukapologetics.net/1theoterms.htm. While I may respect those who may have the exclusivist view on salvation, I think this Pastor Bill Keller of Live Prayer online church who declares that Michael Jackson’s spirit as we speak is in hell is simply in a spiritual jurisdiction he does not belong. That is simply, God’s perogative and as one of Pastor of a fellowship (post W/XCG mind you) told me, “Doesn’t ONLY GOD have absolute truth?” While mankind only sees the surfaces, doesn’t God really knows what is in any persons heart? Also what about 2 Peter 3:9? God does not want anyone to perish—shouldn’t that be the attitude of believers too? It may be tough sometimes but it’s an attitude that I think is worth it. You could see the article about Pastor Keller’s assertion at God Discussion at http://www.goddiscussion.com/6955/church-reactions-to-michael-jacksons-death/.
Also in another unsual move, I praise United Churchof God President Clyde Kilough’s video which was shown on Gavin’s site at http://ambassadorwatch.blogspot.com/2009/06/thriller-final-note.html. Again I must caveat with Gavin’s statement when which he said, “I did gag a bit at the end when he talked about encouraging “normal” childhood. He should listen in to the testimony of the lost generations of “church brats.” But, all said and done, it gets a 6/10.” Maybe if Gary Antion (who has some professional expertise in marriage and family counselling) did the tribute, I think I and Gavin might give him a 9/10.
Rabbi Shmuely Boteach, of “Shalom in The Home” fame on TLC was Jackson’s spiritual advisor. Rabbi Boteach articulated his emotions about Michael Jackson in life and death (and boy I can transparently identify with the Rabbi’s rollercoaster of emotions on Michael Jackson). Read this here at: http://www.shmuley.com/articles/details/master_of_an_empty_kingdom_the_tragically_short_life_of_michael_jackson/
As I have said on The Way I See It Anyway in my 39 years I have seen many episodes of let say, “the day when the music died”. I remember the death of Elvis in 1977 at age 7, been through the assassination of John Lennon in 1980 at age 10, the murder of Marvin Gaye in 1984 at age 14 and the tragic suicide of Kurt Corbain in 1994 at age 24. As long as you and I live and if Jesus Christ does not return to swallow death forever, I am very sure there will be episodes of “the day when the music died”. The good news is that Jesus Christ is the Victor of Death. He conquered His own death at Calvary and presented ALL mankind the offer to live forever. In that day, those who have accepted that opportunity will finally receive it. I firmly support CS Lewis assertion that in the day, there will be those who WANT to be with God and those who DON’T want to be with God. Those who want to be with God will say to God, “Thy will be done!” Those who do not want to be with God, God himself will say, “Thy will be done!” Christ’s death and ressurection on the cross provided the opportunity that Michael Jackson, Farrah Fawcett, Ed McMahon, Billy Mays and the recently departed Karl Malden of The Streets of San Francisco and American Express commercial fame these people don’t have live a short measly several decades on earth but to have glorified human bodies that is completely free from sin, disease and death! I am sure Karl Malden who lived to 97 this past Wednesday is looking for a new glorified body after the health problems he had in the final years of his life! Those of us who believe, need ever so vigilant and enthusiastic to know that in spite of recent events the Good News remains the Good News.
I am a non-evangelical Christian…If someone asks me about Christianity, I will present it as best I can to them, but I will not obtrude on someone else with my personal beliefs. I believe my job is to set a Christian example not to preach.
All too often demonst[r]ativeness is mistaken for evangelism. Some people feel a deep need to be demonstrative about their beliefs. I think this has more to do with a psychological profile than anything religious. People who are obsessive-compulsive about everything in life are also the same way about religion. I have witnessed such demonstrations in the past. For these people the word “share” in item four should be replaced by the word “impose”. In most cases, these people “demonstrate” in front of people who are already evangelized. And in most cases, they are not focused on apprising someone of the Gospel, which almost everybody in Western Civilization understands already, but are instead are trying to get someone to joint a particular denomination.
…In particular I believe evangelicalism has many cultural characteristics that I do not consider myself a part of or subscribe to. Mark Noll gave a good presentation of what is wrong with evangelicalism in “The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind.” He wrote about the rift between the intellectual community (including the Christian intellectual community) and evangelicalism.
It is embarrassing when you encounter people who believe that the universe was created 6,000 years ago and that dinosaurs co-existed with man in the pre-flood world and at the same time claim to represent what is best in God. On the whole, I believe that evangelicals are at odds with scientific thought. This is another reason why I do not consider myself an evangelical. There is a strong element of “give me that old time religion” in the evangelical movement that destroys the credibility of its leaders and adherents.
C.S. Lewis, I believe, was not an evangelical. He gave radio broadcasts and was willing to engage in discussion but he did not walk around talking about “the Lord” all day to any and everyone. Such people give Christianity a smelly cachet.
There are intellectuals and academicians in the evangelical movement, but they are few in number and exert little influence. I have attended some evangelical congregations and when I mention some of the authors in their denomination, the rule is that they do not know who I am talking about. As one theologian told me, most of them do not now if they are Calvinist or Arminian. Nor do they have an interest in this question.
I believe these are good, solid people and are sheep of the flock. But in my mind they are a cultural rather than theological or operative variation of Christianity.
—Internet poster Neotherm giving his two cents on why he is NOT an evangelical and laments the anti-intellectualism in that movement.
Aggie? Richard? FYI Again? Anybody interested in writing some essays? Here is one group that is looking for people to write some essays on these various specific topics:
Hi, we are looking for a volunteer to write only 5 essays on the WWCOG.
The essay are:
History of the WWCOG
Examination of the Criticisms against WWCOG
Overview of Educational Institutions and how they have benefited society
Biography of leader
Why is the WWCOG unique?
The best thing about BGP is that you write the essay and you answer the questions regarding it.
Please contact editor2009@live.co.uk for details.
Who is this group? Well the person who posted the challenge on WCG alumni explains:
Hi,
I’m Richard Lewis from Bible Group Pickings., established by social group: fruit ministries. Our organization is non-profit one to help all Christian people publish essays on their faith and even, a place where people can put up literature such as poems and short stories. Primarily, the project began because of my own lack of understanding about all different Christian faiths and I want to be sure of making the right decision before I commit to any faith. We are very lenient with our ratings. We do not ask for donations we do not even have a donation page. The great thing about BGP is the adherent of the faith writes the reviews of the faith they belong to. We only mark the essay, not the faith with a 5 star rating system. We call no faith a cult, I myself am not a Christian yet because I haven’t decided on a denomination yet. I hope to have decided after this project has finished.
We’ve had two volunteers so far, one a Catholic and another a Messianic Israelite. We have also had a born again Christian who has contributed to our minor essays collections. They have all enjoyed their experiences so far.
On top of that, you get prizes, nametags (therefore more traffic), you can advertise a related website for free
, upload drawings to help demonstrate your point and even go so far as to add music. One aspect of BGP is that insiders may write a inside view of their faith – so, what it is like to be part of the WWCOG and why you are part of the WWCOG.
Bible Group Pickings is a high quality, respectable, research and review organisation which also specializes in publishing essays and poems from Christians all over the world. It’s primary purpose, as stated by the Lewis brothers, was to help spread the word of faith(s) around the world, and make it easy to access information about them.
If gives you a chance to show off your faith and to fulfil the mission to spread the Gospel . We also give tips how to use BGP to the fullest advantage and to earn money from your essays by using BGP…
The site is religiousviews.webnode.com
Good luck for those interested and who have the time to enter such a project.
This factoid was prepared by poster “KoeyKoala” in 2006 on Mark Tabladillo’s Jesus Loves Fellowship message board based on a discussion of what I Corinthians 16:2 really meant:
We see examples in the NT of both Saturday and Sunday observance. What we don’t see is a command for either day. Even the Catholic Encyclopedia mentions “The express teaching of Christ and St. Paul prevented the early Christians from falling into the excesses of Jewish Sabbatarianism in the observance of the Sunday…”
“The obligation of rest from work on Sunday remained somewhat indefinite for several centuries.” It was St. Caesarius at the beginning of the 6th century, who insisted upon observing Sunday like the Saturday Sabbath. However, “The Council held at Orleans in 538 reprobated this tendency as Jewish and non-Christian.”
Sunday as a Sabbath has had a checkered history and the simplistic accusation from Saturday Sabbatarians is not entirely correct. We can thank the Puritans for the strictness of Sunday Sabbatarianism among Protestants.
Armstrongism is a fear based cult, it has always been that. There was fear of church leaders, fear of being disloyal, fear of not making into the kingdom, fear of being disfellowshipped, etc. Armstrongism at it’s core is not a joy based faith. If it was, then there is no need to be constantly worrying about when the end is coming, who the beast is, etc. They have no relationship with the creature they claim as ‘jesus’. ‘It’ doesn’t exist! They wonder why the ‘church’ isn’t growing, why there are so many splinter sects of momma church, why so many different men claiming to be God’s only true minister, and on and on and on.
When you see the absolute hatred dripping from some of these people there is no way in h-e-ll that God would have a chance in working with them. The have such vile hatred for Tkach Sr that it is appalling. Yet, they quickly forget that Herb placed TK in that position over many other ministers (particularly LaRavia and Meredith). Now if Herb can make no mistakes and is constantly led by God then God must have deliberately made a mistake. That is what these loonies think.
Very blunt but very true assesment of the splinters of Armstrongism by WCG Alumni poster PasedenaGuy10 on UCG elder Aaron Dean’s belief that “we have only 4-5 years left!”
Human life is short, special and to be enjoyed. Dance like an idiot. Love your wife and kids. Tell dumb jokes and mess up the punch line. Start a business, succeed or fail, you will learn! Its all good in the end. Discover new science, lift up your corner of the universe and see how it works! God’s given us all so many mysteries to explore and things and materials from which we can create. And for the love of God, learn to leave the Apocalyptic mindset. Its a mind virus, a life waster. We all die as humans, but our Spirit goes back to the one who created it.
—Bold, brave, challenging, go-smell-the-roses, common sense advice from former Ekklessia website founder and member William (Bill) Ferguson in his closing comments this past May as he moves on to other endeavours.
I know Aggie has this clip on her site as well as J of Shadows provides the link to the clip on this site, I just said, “Oh heck! Why can’t I? I will just make sure nobody escapes this.” This is the Christian Research Institute’s founder, the late Walter Martin back in the late ’70’s during the Worldwide Church of God’s upheaval with the California Attorney General talking on a local ABC affiliate about the Worldwide Church of God as it was back then and made predictions were cults would take us in the future. Little did he know about cultic doctrine within the Church (think the Wealth-Health Gospel) that would be so rampant after his death.
Because of the way the WCG and other cults “co-opt” the time of the end, and make it appear that they, as God’s special agents, are going to be virtually presiding over it, it’s something that most of us had decided that we would have liked not to happen. Because these ACOG cults make it appear that when Jesus Christ returns, He will institute government just as it is practiced in their little church groups, using their own teachers, most of us who have left Armstrongism have been all too willing to jetison the doctrine of “the end”.
I don’t know how much time we have left. It would be difficult to assign a timeline. You can look at the prophecies in the book of Revelation, and contemplate global warming. How long will it take for the sun to become so much hotter, soas to fulfill those prophecies? You can also read about the beheading of the saints by the beast power and the antichrist, and wonder how long it will take for the Islamification of Europe to take place, so that that becomes a probability.
We know that some of the prerequisites are already in place. For one thing, in order for end time prophecy to even seem like a remote possibility, there had to be an Israel. Since 1948, that condition has been met. We are also told that the gospel would have to go out to all corners of the earth. The USA, a Christian nation, has been the main bastion of this activity. The many evangelistic associations from coast to coast have, for the first time in history, been translating the gospel of Jesus Christ into all of the known languages, and are disseminating it via satellite all around the world. They frequently review the entire globe to monitor how efficiently this has been accomplished, and target any identifiable deficient areas. I was quite amazed to learn of some of this. Christian leaders are being trained in China, India, and many other parts of the world, so that they can go out and train others. Each individual in these little training cells has a personal assignment to find and train 1,000 others. It is highly organized, and the progress is carefully measured. Many of the citizens of Arabic nations have satellite TV, and the gospel is going out to them in their languages. And, in these Islamic nations, where religious law is the secular law, the penalty for belief in Jesus Christ is death. Cell phones, and other similar devices, have programs on them related to the gospel message, and contain the actual and full text of the Holy Bible, and are being distributed around the world. A couple of weeks ago, I was sitting in church, turning to the scriptures referenced by the pastor, and the guy next to me took his Blackberry out of his pocket, and began following those same scriptures on its screen! Blew me away!
It’s just huge, and the reason I’m describing it all here is that I think that most of the people who have come from the Armstrong movement are probably totally unaware of it all. Because of what we were taught, and the way in which we were taught it, I’ve found that even the non-believers would not be looking at this activity. They would be watching the splinters to reassure themselves that none of them were suddenly gaining a major voice in all of this. Believe me, on the non-believer forums, they take special interest every time a Ron Weinland gains attention and then ends up falling on his face. But that is simply a distraction, or sleight of hand, and they are missing the real thing happening right under their noses! The kinds of people who are involved in this gospel spreading are not doing it to create empires and wealth for themselves. Their message is for people to get right with God, get Him into your life, and follow Jesus Christ. Find a Bible based church, and become part of a Christian community. It’s not manipulative, in that it doesn’t attempt to back people into a specific group or into an eclectic set of doctrines. The only action that becomes important is the development of a personal relationship with God, and then help others to understand the importance of this, as well.
Another detail. I don’t hear people setting dates. These spreaders of the gospel freely acknowledge that only the Father knows specifically when Jesus will return. But they also are saying that we can know the basic time of the season, and it’s going to be sooner than later.
